tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-76692515692303107.post9153021618235528618..comments2024-03-27T21:38:46.966+02:00Comments on going home ... to yerushalayim: Children of Baalei Teshuva / Converts / Something to Think About During These 9 DaysNeshamahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06326762185596512130noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-76692515692303107.post-87008438946418518952016-08-14T10:31:56.853+03:002016-08-14T10:31:56.853+03:00You nailed it.You nailed it.oranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-76692515692303107.post-49448558057974932682016-08-14T10:26:42.436+03:002016-08-14T10:26:42.436+03:00Being afraid of negative influence is a big stream...Being afraid of negative influence is a big stream of evil that goes through hareidi society.<br />If hareidi society.<br /><br />If hareidi society wanted to be morally up to torah standards, they would have to abandon this belief and a few others too.oranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-76692515692303107.post-4374765871353509442016-08-14T10:23:51.042+03:002016-08-14T10:23:51.042+03:00....in the end, I come to the conclusion that ever.......in the end, I come to the conclusion that everyone fends for themselves, also in the hareidi communities that appear so united.<br /><br />In fact, being hareidi is an extra weight one has to carry, it is not something that makes life easier. And in this respect, being FFB is worse than being BT, since a BT generally has a good education, can earn money easier, and has alternatives in life if injustly rejected by hareidi society. A FFB is stuck.<br /><br />So there is really no reason to envy FFB.<br /><br />As far as acceptance goes: in the end, it is a personal thing, and there are plenty of FFB, even siblings, who do not like each other, plenty of FFB who get treated unfairly by their society, and virtually all FFB get denied opportunities in life because they are FFB.oranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-76692515692303107.post-28654461325556924762016-08-14T10:15:44.871+03:002016-08-14T10:15:44.871+03:00I just spent a month working in a super-duper-frum...I just spent a month working in a super-duper-frum (mostly chassidish) institution.<br /><br />My conclusion is: frum is not frum or holy, it is just a very special subculture.<br /><br />What I want to say is: those chareidim have many shortcomings in their frumkeit and morality, but there are chumres pertaining to clothing and keeping a very closed culture they insist on keeping.<br /><br />But it is not more jewish than any other brand of jewishness. It is just more insular and separated from the rest of the world.<br /><br />Therefore, I see no advantage, jewishness-wise or religion-wise, in becoming hareidi. This is one thing.<br /><br />The other thing is that FFB children get denied many, many opportunities in their lives, like a proper education, sports, music. From this standpoint, I see no advantage in throwing one's children into those hareidi schools that stifle them more than anything else. If anything, we should try and free the FFB children from those schools and provide them with a proper education and all the opportunities a "normal" child has in our day and age.<br /><br />The mentality of rejection against outsiders is part and parcel of the hareidi culture, and I'd rather have a child rejected from hareidi schools than adopting this kind of mentality on their own after getting into a hareidi school.<br /><br />I think this mentality is just one negative trait of hareidi society, there are many more, many more that I would not wish my children to adopt. Therefore: stay away from hareidi society, keep your self-assurance, see their shortcomings, do not strive to belong, because on the inside, this society has very ugly and unholy traits. <br />oranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-76692515692303107.post-6767143368764556342016-08-14T10:05:31.463+03:002016-08-14T10:05:31.463+03:00more or less same here.
Thanks for writing. It is...more or less same here.<br /><br />Thanks for writing. It is a more or less typical situation. That said: divorced FFB women are in the same situation when they have no children or when they are rejected by or alienated from their children.oranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-76692515692303107.post-17504985718683862082016-08-12T00:51:21.039+03:002016-08-12T00:51:21.039+03:00Well said!Well said!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-76692515692303107.post-7884483746241347322016-08-11T06:40:19.674+03:002016-08-11T06:40:19.674+03:00I'm the long winded anonymous at 20:32
Regardi...I'm the long winded anonymous at 20:32<br />Regarding the possible interaction with non-religious family. Specific to me, I have none, so this doesn't apply to me. <br /><br />However, I see many FFB family rely on live-in goyishe nanny and maids, often not supervised and unattended. I would think this regular and in-house familiarity would be far more of a stronger influence on small kids than visiting some distance relative with their parents around once in a great while. <br /><br />While I did not grow up religious, I was never left with non-family babysitters. My mother was stay at home and the rare occasion my siblings and I were babysat, it was either by my bubbie or aunt and then older sibling once became a teenager.<br /><br />I don't judge, people do the best they can, but it seems that perhaps when some point their fingers at possible bad, there's four fingers pointing in the opposite direction.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-76692515692303107.post-7106782568072309662016-08-10T22:56:25.583+03:002016-08-10T22:56:25.583+03:00humble servant: You said it all. The world has g...humble servant: You said it all. The world has gone made and the Jews have, unfortunately, joined the club. Just a few of the reasons why we need Moshiach desperatelyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-76692515692303107.post-77030791992152904642016-08-10T22:45:25.225+03:002016-08-10T22:45:25.225+03:00Re: Anon. 20:18 Sorry, correction. The next to las...Re: Anon. 20:18 Sorry, correction. The next to last paragraph the 'not' is left out -'not' following the other natons. In other words, yirat Shamayim and Ahavat H' (of course, ahavat chinam) and 'not' to follow the ways of the other nations!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-76692515692303107.post-79428203573734532302016-08-10T21:00:16.669+03:002016-08-10T21:00:16.669+03:00we are fragmented unto distraction and i haven'...we are fragmented unto distraction and i haven't even mentioned political associations... agudah centrist rca all the parties in the israeli electoral structure...<br /><br />ou yu ok chafk stark... ad infinitum ad nauseam...nikmatdam ~ humble servanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04765144425273984304noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-76692515692303107.post-33922334587373968312016-08-10T20:53:54.699+03:002016-08-10T20:53:54.699+03:00that's right... we have forgotten that we are ...that's right... we have forgotten that we are one nation... not just a bunch of kehilot kodesh... this city jewry... state or country... this synagogue's jews or that yeshiva's community of or circle of adherents followers and affiliates... this rebbe's chasidim or that one's... ashkenazi or sephardic or edat mizrach... secular or dati... israeli or diaspora jews... reform conservative orthodox egalitarian or reconstruction... and the list goes on...<br /><br />ffb or bt... native born or convert... modern orth... litvish... chasidish... charedi... chabad... yeshivish... haimish... erlech... eidel...<br /><br />u just want to scream!!!<br /><br />it's enuf to drive u insane...<br /><br />we are one people called klal yisroel or am yisroel... and we have to begin thinking this way or we're in for sad times ahead... G-d forbid...nikmatdam ~ humble servanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04765144425273984304noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-76692515692303107.post-53089827051879354022016-08-10T20:32:39.380+03:002016-08-10T20:32:39.380+03:00Wow, I could identify with much of this article, I...Wow, I could identify with much of this article, I don't have kids, perhaps in some ways that's a blessing. I grew up not frum, but in very traditional family from a small town. Plenty of Jews, not frum Jews (at the time there wasn't a Chabad in my area, now there is). After college, I saved up until I could move to NYC. I've tried various communities, never found a niche. <br /><br />I saw a key to fitting in is to find an "adoptive" family. One that regular extends invites, I've seen plenty of folks integrate that way, but for some reason, being a bit older, having what I've been told is an "Aryan" look (I don't see it myself) makes folks question if I'm really Jewish even though I've had my Jewishness confirmed many times. I repeatedly tried changing my appearance, dyeing darker hair, getting perm (apparently my straight hair is too goyishe looking), short of plastic surgery, I've tried. I also have well paying job (not rich, but I do well) that's not so typical for a female (not inappropriate, suitable for frum life, just not a typical job). So unless I want a part time job of finding myself invites for meals (which I do sometimes, but it's many calls early in the week and waiting to hear back), I often spent Shabbos by myself. Yes, I do go visit shut-ins and old folks homes and travel to other areas for Shabbos, but the reality is that I don't have my own family (so no bad influences) or people willing to be family. I do sometimes find folks like myself to have over for a meal, but I have accepted I'm on my own. I have found greater peace with accepting rather than trying to squeeze myself where I'm not wanted.<br /><br />When I became interested in exploring frumkeit, I point blank asked if there would be difficulties in finding a shidduch. I was repeatedly assured that there are so many "boys" that would love to date me if I just kept increasing my observance. The reality was that I very rarely dated. I saw my peers who were younger get great shidduchim right away, though most quit being religious shortly after. They now have families. <br /><br />I'm now in my mid-40s. I had always wanted to marry and raise a family. As I said I earlier, I grew up extremely traditional so I'll be bold in saying I never then or now engaged inappropriate behavior, yet I got so many disgusting offers from FFB men looking for "fun." Note, I am very shy in real life and dress extremely modest so there isn't anything I do that would indicate I'd be interested. It is just falsely assumed I'd be up for that based on a past I don't have. <br /><br />I have rarely dated. The few opportunities I receive were men who had very serious mental conditions who had 3 or more ex wives, special needs men that could not live independently or very elderly men with health issues and were more interested in my health plan, or they didn't speak English.<br /><br />After one promising shidduch with a very MO liberal man divorced man with major difficulties, his rabbi decided that, even though I'm a besulah, but at my age and given I wasn't born frum, I'm assumed not to be. So no sheva brachos because of that--how humiliating to broadcast this! Yet my younger friends years back had, and FFB friends that went very OTD for a while and came back, also had. But it would not look nice for an older BT to have something special and fit in like the other kallahs.<br /><br />Of course, his family required a huge wedding I just could not afford, nor could I buy him a nice home in the area he wanted as expected (I do have a small home, but not suitable enough for him), so that ended things.<br /><br />After that, I decided I finally got the hint, I'm really not wanted and stop trying to fit in, it's a waste of time. I do keep kosher and shabbat, but I moved back to a smaller town where I fit in much better. There is a Chabad and Jewish but not frum community and it works better. I am no longer looking anymore, and moving on to more productive endeavors. Thank you for reading.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-76692515692303107.post-75284553489603953972016-08-10T20:32:12.995+03:002016-08-10T20:32:12.995+03:0010 August, 2016 20:18 You’re so right. But we are ...10 August, 2016 20:18 You’re so right. But we are forgetting about the Sons of Yaakov and the Tribes and their personalities and traits. I’m doing a post on that now. Soon to come.Neshamahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06326762185596512130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-76692515692303107.post-65554508144131592572016-08-10T20:18:03.710+03:002016-08-10T20:18:03.710+03:00The only reason there is a problem to begin with w...The only reason there is a problem to begin with within the Jewish community is because we were thrust unto the four corners of the earth because of our sins and then a deeper reason being about the sparks, etc.; but this integration with the non-Jewish world has caused the divisions within our people. The European world is different than the Oriental world, etc. Wherever one comes from, naturally, his outlook, his dress, his thinking, etc., etc. are completely foreign to others who come from a different part of the world. How much moreso is the Jew who needs to hold on to Torah law (halachot)? Thus, we have the breakdown - chassidim, litvish, etc., etc. <br /><br />Afraid that it will take Moshiach to be able to make us into one again. Up until that time, all Jews need be united in love and caring for each but should stick with their own individual communities, so no sinah is created, more than exists already. The forcing of the leftists on chareidim to become secular is self-understood, meaning to secularize them, c'v. The division has been for about 200 years between the yeshivah (litvish) world and the chassishe world. And, of course, there is the opposition to one another by the Ashkenazim and Sephardim. It's all nonsense, but human nature. Of course, B'H, it's not like it once was; so the answer is stick to your own communities as far as education is concerned. The wiser ones amongst us know how to get along with our fellow Jews and even marriages between the communities is a great start.<br /><br />The MAIN THING is that there can never ever be a weakening in our yirat Shamayim and ahavat H' and following the ways of the non-Jewish world!<br /><br />Soon Moshiach will come and we will be a true nation with one heart and mind just as we were when we said Naasse v'Nishma!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-76692515692303107.post-2073790613682134142016-08-10T10:18:21.970+03:002016-08-10T10:18:21.970+03:0010 August, 2016 06:13 – You are speaking of the ‘p...10 August, 2016 06:13 – You are speaking of the ‘purity’ involved, which is a spiritual dimension. In order for those discriminated against to gain the proper footing and enable their children to enter this ‘purity’ you speak of, they need to be accepted and educated so that THEIR children can “make it”. It has to start somewhere; the ingathering needs to proceed in order for Mashiach to arrive. <br /><br />The ingathering is a difficult process, and it is a process. We must go through it to build up the Jewish Nation, to bring all Jews back to the future so our “Father in Heaven will have Nachas” to put it in simple terms. Neshamahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06326762185596512130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-76692515692303107.post-57385394583239640242016-08-10T10:16:18.410+03:002016-08-10T10:16:18.410+03:00neshama... it's ok... i didn't know u were...neshama... it's ok... i didn't know u were the one i was communicating with over those items... i would really like to have an edit option so i can correct myself... it's hard to see the errors until u get to read the post... it's just too hard for me to catch everything from the prepublication state of these comments we're posting...nikmatdam ~ humble servanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04765144425273984304noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-76692515692303107.post-77379323163734337712016-08-10T10:10:07.733+03:002016-08-10T10:10:07.733+03:0010 August, 2016 02:03 – So sorry about the discrim...10 August, 2016 02:03 – So sorry about the discrimination. I know why, but have to ask anyway, WHY did you have to go to an Ashkenazi Yeshiva, their ways are not your ways? Rabbi Ovadiya zt”l tried to change that and now there are other Yeshivos to go to. <br /><br />We are in the End of Days and the Tribal distinctions will, I believe, return so all Yidden will be comfortable in their Derech Hashem. However, this does NOT NEGATE have a UNITY of purpose, which is to serve Hashem and the Halachos, each in his/her fashion, according to their Tribal distinction.Neshamahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06326762185596512130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-76692515692303107.post-9831636342777354802016-08-10T10:02:48.882+03:002016-08-10T10:02:48.882+03:0010 August, 2016 00:55 – Why do all haredim have to...10 August, 2016 00:55 – Why do all haredim have to look exactly like carbon-copies of each other? That is not yiddishkeit, but it is how one recognizes his “brother/sister”. I think the clothing of the women also is standardized, which is so clearly visible in Israel. Everything here is a “political statement” – why, I wonder why it has to be that way? <br /><br />Its not fair to label BT’s because of a piece of clothing, and I don’t believe the father has to make sure his son adheres to every stitch of thread. Did you read about the father (poor soul) who committed suicide because his child was not accepted into a religious school? He was broken, albeit probably very weak to begin with, but why was he shamed into suicide? What about his family? You could probably search google for that JPost article.Neshamahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06326762185596512130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-76692515692303107.post-13193880289918242302016-08-10T09:57:57.356+03:002016-08-10T09:57:57.356+03:00This is really, really, really stupid. The frum wo...This is really, really, really stupid. The frum world is so incredibly exclusive due to prejudice. And Klal Yisrael has suffered so much from prejudice of others for centuries: it's like the frum world internalized the actions of the oppressor. FFB kids also get thrown out, for things like gasp! having depression (gee I wonder why anyone would be depressed in the Chareidi world...) or much less offenses than that. Why do the Chareidim even bother with Kiruv? Those Chassidic sects who do not really engage in kiruv have by far more integrity: at least they do not lure innocents into a world they will never be accepted into, and will not even know for years to come.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-76692515692303107.post-8892139909103742962016-08-10T09:53:15.766+03:002016-08-10T09:53:15.766+03:00Humble, so sorry about that. 99.9% of the time I d...Humble, so sorry about that. 99.9% of the time I do not delete comments, only if they are obscene and use bad language.<br /><br />I am amazed at the r responses to this post, so keeping up with the comments was difficult because I also have a life. I will try to add that “reply” to a comment option. <br /><br />I agree that the issues being discussed are monumental and as I wrote to Josh K, maybe we need a sequel with some of the comments posted up-front so others can also comment on the comments. I will try to arrange that. Do you think it worthwhile? ITMT Thank you very much for your valuable criticism.Neshamahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06326762185596512130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-76692515692303107.post-23532244441512693402016-08-10T09:46:43.033+03:002016-08-10T09:46:43.033+03:00Josh K, would you venture a guess as to these divi...Josh K, would you venture a guess as to these divisions in today’s Jewish world? Who is Who? Can you even begin to decipher these groups and their biblical beginnings? That would be a fascinating endeavor and worthy of a separate blog – and to those who comment on it. Neshamahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06326762185596512130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-76692515692303107.post-68582964133791208872016-08-10T06:13:00.751+03:002016-08-10T06:13:00.751+03:00Does anyone here not see it from the FFB perspecti...Does anyone here not see it from the FFB perspective? Is it not true that there could be negative influences coming from BT families?<br /> I don't think this issue is because the yeshivishe school lack ahavas Yisrael. It comes from a sincere desire to shield their kids from undesired influences. Of course it should be done with sensitivity and tactfully. I'm a ger Jewish father/non-Jewish mother). I had a frum conversion at age 15 and went off to yeshiva at 16. I don't like the fact that I'm a "second class citizen" but I get it. There is a difference between someone born with "good yichus" and someone born with blemishes yichus. It's just a fact! Did a mamzer do anything wrong? No! But he still can't marry into the Khal Hashem. <br /><br />Let's stop accusing FFBs of having a lack in Ahavas Yisrael and instead judge them favorably. They have every right to be concerned about their children's spiritual well being.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-76692515692303107.post-3502752411672454892016-08-10T02:03:13.303+03:002016-08-10T02:03:13.303+03:00Only read up to the part where you said ashkenazim...Only read up to the part where you said ashkenazim were discriminated against and persecuted by sephardim and felt the need to comment on that. Prior to 1920/30's ashkenazim were the majority and discriminated against sephardim. Not that I'm justifying discriminating against the ashkenazim but the ashkenazim have a history of discrimination against sephardim which ultimately led to sephardim (once they became the majority) discriminating against the ashkenazim. In fact there still is a huge rift between ashkenazim and sephardim. And I can tell you from experience as a sephardi who went to a 99% ashkenaz high school that we were 100% discriminated against and looked at as lesser beings. Just thought I should mention that. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-76692515692303107.post-47127620636684938672016-08-10T00:56:48.224+03:002016-08-10T00:56:48.224+03:00u editors need to put an edit option on the screen...u editors need to put an edit option on the screen so we can add correct or detract... also u need to post sooner so we don't wait around all day to see if our comment gets posted... and while u notify for your comment being posted or responded to... how about a feature where when a comment of ours is rejected u notify us and give us a reason for rejection... these things would greatly improve things around here... just saying...nikmatdam ~ humble servanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04765144425273984304noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-76692515692303107.post-31831534648203473212016-08-10T00:55:38.920+03:002016-08-10T00:55:38.920+03:00This blog makes it sound like anyone who was ever ...This blog makes it sound like anyone who was ever not brought up frum has no hope and that just isn't true. There are plenty of BTs who fit in very nicely into their communities and their children go to very good mainstream schools as well. I can't speak for the idiots that make it sound like they can't allow their children to come near the children of BTs but I can assure you that our chareidi neighborhoods were never like that. My children were very well-liked, well-accepted children who all went to mainstream seminaries and yeshivot. On the other hand, I never stuck out or did anything so different when my children were growing up that would cause anyone to think that I was any different from them. Could it be that those people who are complaining about being discriminated against are doing things that are not really exactly like their FFB neighbors and classmates? Some people become frum and integrate into their communities seamlessly and others can always be picked out as BTs for decades because they never fully integrate. <br /><br />Now, please don't think that I think that being a bit different is terrible or not holy, but one of the things that principals and va'adei kabalot look at is how well a particular individual or family is integrated within the group. With regard to the father whose son was being called "a Harry", what did he do to help his son fit in better? Did he find out what kind of socks/briefcase/shirts or whatever was considered "normative" in his son's class and make sure to provide his son with it? Did he support or criticize those who were heading the community? Did the father dress like all the other fathers? Or did he feel that they should be accepted even though they didn't want to or were not able to change to fit in with the "norm"?<br /><br />The chareidi world has a lot of flaws, but I don't think you can say that they are always guilty of the one that this blog is accusing them of.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com